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    The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

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    Brodyaga

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    The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  Brodyaga on Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:56 am

    Nagazul, thank you for you great work anf the gift of wonderfull time spent in this game, but... who do you position this game for?

    If you added such an option as big lazer gun and others, then this is for people who likes to pick up all the technology avaylable, build the whole civilization, and engoy the long fights, cooperating and destroying ugly enemies, right?

    Those guys, who likes challenges and victories, would choose fight with each other somewhere else, not in non-ranked COOPERATING game here.
    But self-affirmation in struggle against whird computer whims on a map and imbalanses in a game - this is not something that many players would enjoy. (I also feel more and more dissatisfaction whith the new map.)

    Yes, we exist: those people who choose cooperating, not opposing to others.

    I put three (3!) big lazer guns, 1 Planetary Fortress, 2 Healing buildings and a few smoller gans, and still could not defend myself from wave of rouchers on 1-hour point on Normal speed.

    From my point of view,
    1. Lazer Gans have to be much stronger and selfhealing. (It takes too much resourses to repair it, and you don't have a time to gather them, mainly because you need to rebuild you defences after the atack)
    2. Not enough supply on the map. (You can give players the option to rebuild previosly salvaged Supply Depots in protected area, if you don't want to bother with building in flying abilities into Supply Depots.)
    3. The fact that, opposit to other buildings, Fusion Core can not fly - is the most inconvinient in the game. Once found, Fusion Core should be able to get salvaged and built in protected area.
    4. Demage to frendly units needs to be taken avay from the Siege Tanks: I lost too many Hunters because of that. When Ultralisks come too close then Siege tanks just destroy your own position.
    5. Mode "Fire Everything" does not make any sence in turrels without mode "Stop Fire" so they would accumulete enough energy for firing a few vessels. Also it does not make sence because turrel fires anyway as soon as enemy gets into its range, without any command - and when you command, it just does not have energy.
    6. You can give option to build Probes (for all players) in "Protoss Technology", this would be handfull later in the game when you want to gather resoures quikly, to make use of it's announsed double speed. (I am just afraid to sent my the only Probe out of protected perimeter.)

    I hope for your cooperation), so I can come and enjoy this game in better mode. Becides, the imrovements will make the game more popular among soft and peacefull people. (The others play Quick Maches, right?)

    "The set of computer whims": I mean, sometimes (half of the times, actually) the Science Facilities and other goodies, like Protoss Technologies are just inaccesible in early game on some computer-made maps because of too much protection or they are on the hills. So, I had just to restart and restart (in single player game), again and again - because even the little lost time on early minutes will insure my certain fail in half an hour - one hour... Better restart sooner than later.
    But this statement is fair only in single mode. When four players play, someone defenitely is more lucky and others can use his prize, so in group play it is not vital to push through zerg defence with the only worker unlike the situation with single player when the less protected facility wold be probubly somewhere on the other corner of the map.


    Last edited by Brodyaga on Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:49 am; edited 3 times in total

    Brodyaga

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  Brodyaga on Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:53 am

    Brodyaga wrote: "The set of computer whims":

    The bad computer whimp in this game is that the ammount of resources is not stable from game to game. Algorithm of distributing resources on the map is not perfect, not to say more. Sometimes there are not enough of them, in addition they are scattered on a vast teritorries, so you can't mantain high enough speed of gathering resorses. Because of computer whimps you just can't pay enough attention to scout arround, gather resouces and build new defencive structures.
    And this is dissapointing, I'll tell you: victory does not deppends on your scills...

    combatjoe

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  combatjoe on Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:28 pm

    I like that there is a bit of luck involved. It gives the game more replay value, even if many rounds will be frustrating. Most of my friends appreciate the extra difficulty it adds too.

    If you compare this to the many custom maps where you fight against fixed waves of mobs, once I figure out how to beat those then I have figured out how to beat them every time, and I don't play them again. Not quite the case here.
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    Starke

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  Starke on Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:34 pm

    I really enjoy the replayability and fun that the random map brings, far more than I dislike the imbalance. And I have not had trouble with many of the issues you listed. Neutral

    I find that 900 health for Big Berthas are more than sufficient - and healing them takes only about 5-8 seconds for half their health - with so much health, that is really high.

    Repairing only costs a few minerals, and can be done with a Mule. Since the most recent patch, the cost of repairing was cut by 60%. Just set your Mule to auto-repair and only overwhelming attacks will break the line.

    i generally have a LOT of supply - exploring gives me more than enough supply capsules and you can salvage supply depots for a permanent 4 supply boost for all players.

    I think that the Fusion Core is supposed to be inconvenient - it only builds one unit, and that unit is very powerful. You have to make a snap decision on whether to buy them or not.

    The Probe issue is tough - I usually go the entire game without a Probe, and really value it when I get one. That said, I think they have the highest health for a ground unit. Or am I confusing it with something else? Loosing one really hurts, but that is life on Krydon.

    By Hunters to you mean Predators? I have not used them in awhile. I prefer turrets. But I can see how they would not mix with Siege Tanks. I think that the removal of Siege Tank splash damage would be reasonable.

    Afternote: Ah, i see you meant only on solo. On solo the balance is certainly different. Perhaps with only one player you also start with a "Civilian." He would have a lasgun and be able to collect resource pods and find buildings, but not gather or build. Just my rough thoughts.
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    Nagnazul
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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  Nagnazul on Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:49 pm

    Siege Tank friendly fire will be cut in half in the next patch.

    When I get around to implementing upgrade buildings, there will be an upgrade to completely remove all siege tank friendly fire.
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    Starke

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  Starke on Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:12 pm

    Word of warning: don't go overboard with upgrade buildings. Some limited ones would be OK. But too many building types is only a drag on the game. And yet another resource drain. And it seems weird to find a building just to spam all its upgrades then salvage it. How many different upgrade buildings do you have planned?

    If I was to PERSONALLY design the upgrade building system, I would:

    Note: some of these are more general suggestions for the creator, some are my personal ideas that I don't expect to be incorporated but I thought would be smart and interesting.

    -make it one building. (The Science Facility model from the Media Blitz mission comes to mind.) It would suck to hunt around for the exact building you need, and the maps are already pretty populated as is. Any more building types squeezed together would seem forced.

    -give it two tiers of upgrades. Some cheaper ones designed to help the early game without being useless later, and more expensive ones that are meant to buff your choice of late-game defense/power.

    -make it strategic outside of the upgrades it provides - I would let it be able to liftoff right after being found. However, only the lower-level upgrades would be available. In order to access the higher-level upgrades, it must morph/construct an addon, and that renders it unable to liftoff. But put a warning in the tooltip for beginners! This gives to much more strategic depth. It makes it useful to early finders, and worth keeping throughout the game, as you want to have the option to move it to a permanent base. But early finders can activate it early to gain access to the more expensive upgrades sooner, but that means the team is betting on either finding another or must get all their upgrades before the temporary position is overrun.

    -make the upgrades interesting. They shouldn't be vital, but certainly helpful. And there shouldn't be too many, nor similar ones for each turret. Examples:

    Tier 1:
    -barricades slowly regenerate health (40 mins)
    -SCV melee damage tripled (60 mins)
    -Command Center health quadrupled (60 mins)
    -SCV energy regenerates 50% faster (70 mins, 10 gas?)
    -Command Center gains repair ability to heal SCV when adjacent (70 mins, 20 gas?)

    Tier 2:
    -Siege Tanks no longer deal splash damage to allies and gain +3 vision (140 mins, 50 gas)
    -Auto-turrets and Missile Turrets health is doubled and slowly regenerate health (200 mins, 100 gas)
    -SCV Lasgun maximum energy doubled, energy regeneration doubled (stacks with other?), and damage tripled (250 mins, 125 gas)
    -Healbot energy regeneration increased by 50% and can heal two targets at once (130 mins, 80 gas)
    -Mind Controlled units gain 50 health, 5 damage, and get a 30% speed increase (130 mins, 100 gas)

    Each one of these is a unique upgrade that benefits a certain style of play without making it overpowered (hopefully). If one is too good, nerf it. If one is not powerful enough, buff it. If one is simply unnecessary, replace it. But it is important that there is no mare than ten or so, and that each one is unique. Some of my suggested upgrades are probably too cheap, or, alternatively, too powerful for their cost. On a second look, some of the Tier 2 upgrades probably need to have their cost increased. But they are all different and interesting in their own way. I particularly like the Tier 2 SCV Lasgun upgrade; it is so crucial early on, but totally unused later in the game. This would make it useful for taking down Ultras, mutas, maybe even a lone Brood Lord or putting a dent in bosses.

    What do you think?


    Last edited by Starke on Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    dra6o0n

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  dra6o0n on Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:15 pm

    Implement Engineering Bay and Armory:

    Engineering Bay has a small radius for "enhancing" your structures to it's peak efficiency. Not stackable. The radius basically covers 8 3x3 (or a 9x9 grid or a range of 8~9) structures around it. Costs 150 Minerals 100 Gas. Can set to 2 modes, Structure and Economy.

    Structure:
    Sentry Turrets = +1 Damage
    Missile Turrets = +25% attack speed
    Big Bertha = +5 Range
    Psi Disruptor = +1 DPS
    Bunker = +2 Armor
    Hive Mind Emulator = +10% Energy Regeneration
    Restorer = +10% Energy Regeneration
    Perdition Turrets = +1 Range
    Siege Tanks = +15% attack speed
    Scanner = +10% Energy Regeneration

    Supply Depot = +2 Supply (buff, not applicable when salvaged)

    Economy:
    Refinery (Vespene Geyser) = +10 Gas per gather (Gas regenerate at +1 per 5 seconds)
    Minerals = +10 Minerals per gather (Minerals regenerate at +1 per 5 seconds)


    Armory allows you to upgrade the SCV's equipments.

    Laser Drill = 15 Damage / 0.5 attack speed / +25% gathering speed

    Shoulder Mounted Grenade Launcher = 40 Direct Damage (60 to armored) / 40 energy consumption on use / 25% splash damage (50% to light units) / Can't hit air units / Manual use / Causes concussion / 5 second cooldown

    Psionic Gun = 14 Damage (10 vs armored) / 10 Energy use / Replaces lasgun but is efficient in energy saving. Higher DPS than lasgun.

    Shields = +100 shields / +1 Shield Armor / Regenerates outside of battle after 10 seconds
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    Starke

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  Starke on Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:14 pm

    On one side, some of these are pretty OP. But on the other, they core ideas are great, and if nerfed a bit would be awesome.

    Thumbs up. farao
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    dra6o0n

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  dra6o0n on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:52 am

    Maybe a Protoss structure can be implemented as a way to "protect" your structures from increased attacks?

    Basically:
    Shield Charger from SC1... Costs 75 minerals and 75 energy and built with a probe, and requires a pylon to function. It's prerequisite is a forge.

    Provides [hp / 10] shields to structures within radius, and constantly regenerates the structure's shields by 1 point per second at a cost of 1 energy per point. It can recharge multiple structures, but it does eat up a lot more energy.

    Now, if two of them are used within radius, the energy use will be better because the charging can stack.

    So basically, a barrier with 200hp will have a shield of 20

    A Missile turret with 300hp will have 30 shield.

    Big Bertha would then have 90 shields.

    If it can't give structures shields (because it gets overpowered), what about giving non-protoss units temporary shields and allows recharging at it? Basically non-protoss units can't regenerate these shields without a charger, and upon interacting with the charger the unit gains shields.
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    dra6o0n

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  dra6o0n on Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:58 pm

    I'd like to add on top of the "building" upgrade idea:

    Rather than having multiple different items split into new upgrades, why not tie them to core structures to build?

    Say a Machine Gun Turret can be upgraded to a Missile Turret... Yeah it seems off but it works...

    This would mean that a Missile turret would be able to shoot missiles at ground and air units though, since upgrading doesn't mean you always lose something.

    As for long range stuff, siege tanks basically falls into a unit rather than a building, and might be workable as a separate "build" with a possible upgrade from it.

    Siege Tank -> Concussion Siege Rounds (slows target in a radius on hit, but sacrifices some damage to use this)?

    So a 60 damage siege tank, can be changed into a 45 damage siege tank, that causes concussion.
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    Starke

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  Starke on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:20 pm

    I think it would be an unnecessary hassle to go around individually upgrading your buildings. But I do like the building shields idea. It would be nice to have a few behind your defensive line at the end, constantly regenerating your small amount of shields. Say, for each regenerator in range you get 1 shield per second, and each shield point regened drains 1 energy from the regen building. Would be a great mechanic, without being overpowered because the Zerg could just beat the regen of a single tower easily, and if you use several regenerators covering several structures, the Zerg could drain the energy much faster. I have a lot of explanations running around in my head... but suffice it to say I think it could be very useful, complex, and balanced. Plus it would fit great with the Dark Shrine model. farao
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    dra6o0n

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  dra6o0n on Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:00 am

    A Power "system" might make this more interesting...

    Restorers can essentially be modified so:
    - You can link 1 structure within it's vicinity to "share" energy use with. This is a output of energy. It will continously regenerate the target structure with it's energy until it is full.
    - When a target structure is linked, it gets a buff, and you can see the restorer visually sending a green line continuously to it..
    - When the Restorer loses the link, the structure loses the buff.
    - Linking it will shut down the restore functionality, thus turning the Restorer into a battery.

    - To balance this, only 3 links can be applied to one target, thus the buff can only be stacked 3 times. But you can play with the power grids and make a array of restorers that regenerate energy to one another, to bypass this.

    It transfers energy at a rate of 3 energy per second at a 1:1 ratio of energy to energy.

    You can't link it to units to continously regenerate energy.

    This works best on Salvo Missile Pads and Other Restorers, because you can technically create a core restorer that heals targets, with many other restorers linking to it and giving it it's energy (thus avoiding the "darn my restorers keeping healing the other stuff and running out of energy!).
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    Starke

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  Starke on Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:10 pm

    That would be cool, but I am thinking more along the lines of nerfing Restorers than buffing them. In this thread, I talk about how a player had a few Hive Mind Emulators, supported them with a massive battery of about 30 Restorers, and made a mockery of our map. Ok, I guess I shouldn't condemn the strategy, it was great and unique, but I really think that Restorers are too good for their price.

    Brodyaga

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    Re: The new map is just a set of weird computer whims and great imbalanses...

    Post  Brodyaga on Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:22 pm

    dra6o0n wrote:...Mind Control Emulater...

    Yea, Mind Control Emulators...

    I hate them now. Once you cought enemy unit, it runs away to attack someone in a half map distance. Espesially vulnerable are Drones, because they are weak. I am catching them to use as slaves, but they run away am die in no time.

    This behaviar of Drons does not correspond with my game experiense: in the game they never attack without command.

    I assume that this immitation of them to be ordered to attack is because of some switch to be set to the ubnormal for Drones attack mode. But after them to be inslaved, there has to be the immitation of me NOT ordering them to attack.

    So, the "swithch" after action of my Mind Control has to be returned to the correct, usual position.

    The same situation with the new "long chase" by other Zerg units: OK? they are chasing. Why? Because of vicious Swarm giving them command about this.

    But I don't give out commands to my units to run away from me! This is unnutural for them run away in uncontrolled mennar, it gous against of all my game experience with these Zerg units

    So, the switch of the long run has to be returned to the usual position when catching them.


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