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    Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

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    Starke

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    Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  Starke on Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:53 pm

    In many ways, the Tesla Coil functions as a cheap Siege Tank. However, I am concerned that there is no longer a reason to construct a Siege Tank over a Tesla Coil.

    A tank has: 13 range, 60 damage, 3 second attack interval, only attacks ground targets, and costs 100 minerals, 60 gas, and 3 supply.

    A Tesla Coil has 10 range, 20 damage or 40 to armored, 2.5 second attack interval, attacks both air and ground targets, and costs 40 minerals, 20 gas, and 1 supply.

    Three Telsa Coils roughly equal one Siege Tank, costing only 20 more minerals and 1 less supply. Disregarding the .5 attack interval advantage of the Tesla Coil, the Tesla group does the same damage as a Siege Tank, but DOUBLE that amount to armored targets, which are the main focus of both weapons. Armored targets include Queens, Roaches, Ultralisks, and I'm assuming Brood Lords, Bane Lords, and all the bosses as well.

    This brings me nicely to my next point, Tesla Coils can attack air units! This is handy for killing off Mutas and Corruptors, but more importantly, THEY HAVE THE RANGE TO TAKE ON BROOD LORDS, BANE LORDS, AND THE LEVIATHAN. The ability to attack these targets was before almost exclusively invested with the Big Bertha. But now, we have another option at a much lower cost that meshes nicely with our Berthas and costs more minerals than gas. Siege Tanks are vastly less useful after the Ultralisk wave, but Tesla Coils are great throughout the game.

    The Siege Tank possesses 3 more range, but rarely is able to utilize this small advantage as it is impractical or unwise to use a unit to" spot" for it.

    The Siege Tank has splash damage, but this rarely comes into play because units generally come in a steady trickle instead of a mass rush.

    Space-wise, Tesla Coils are more massable than Siege Tanks because four Tesla Coils can fit inside the footprint of a single Siege Tank. Remember, three is roughly equivalent.

    The closest analogy to this situation is the Auto-turret and the Minigun-turret. However, the Minigun-turret is only available through the Raven, costs fully double the price, and has no supply requirement. This is a sufficiently different turret, with definite tradeoffs, so the two can coexist.

    In conclusion, these two turrets need to be differentiated. Possible solutions, among many:

    Give the Tesla Coil a bonus toward light units, such as 30 damage or 40 to light.

    Give the Tesla Coil the same bonus as above to light, but also give the Siege Tank a bonus to armored, such as 45 damage or 60 to armored.

    Significantly alter either the mineral or gas cost of the Tesla Coil, so that it is not a "middle-of-the-road" weapon and no longer directly competes with the Siege Tank for the same resources. A.k.a., give it a lopsided cost sorta like the Big Bertha. Alternatively, keep the Tesla as is and apply this to the Siege Tank.

    Reduce its range by 1, stripping its ability to attack Brood Lords and Bane Lords. However, this only solves part of the problem, and pisses off the people that use that function. A better solution would be to lower the Tesla Coil's range more, probably to about 6-7, to show that this is serious, but implement an alternative buff, such as the aforementioned bonus to light, to give it a definite purpose.

    Also, if they are getting nerfed, could you do us a favor and reduce their build time? They are a pain in the ass to mass, especially if you are racing the clock. Mad

    Bottom line, they need different roles. The Siege Tank is a heavy ground hitter, a job that is it currently quite good at. The problem is, the Tesla Coil can do the same job BETTER for the same price, while simultaneously doing everything else.

    Your Faithful Watchdog,
    Starke


    Last edited by Starke on Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:17 pm; edited 5 times in total
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    dra6o0n

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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  dra6o0n on Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:09 pm

    Telsa Coils really really sucks when loads of broodlords attack. Seriously, They can survive that wave, but not without taking their damn time shooting the broodlords to death.

    When a broodlord encounters a Telsa Coil, it usually stay outside the other coils' range, thus only 1 coil will engage in attacking it.

    Tesla Coils and Turrets have a weird tendency to focus on one target and won't switch to closer to better priorities ones.

    Like if the Telsa Coil is attacking a Structure, if a unit enters it's range, it won't swap targets to a better priority, it'll keep trying to hit it.

    Restorers too, has this issue with priorities. They will restore closer applicable units, as a high priority, rather than to units with the least hp, or needs it the most (like your scv).
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    Starke

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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  Starke on Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:35 pm

    Very true. They only have .5 more range than Brood/Bane Lords, so only one will attack. At least one Big Bertha is still effectively a requirement.

    The attack priority thing is not unique to Tesla Coils. Auto turrets will continue attacking a Spine Crawler that is not attacking back even if Zerg units are attacking it. I haven't noticed the range priority thing though.

    As for Restorers, sometimes they can be a pain in the ass. Can we made it so they heal once the structure is below 1/3 health? It sucks when a row of barricades gets low, then all get blown to pieces by a single Baneling. And it makes me damn nervous when my Big Berthas and Rescue Beacons get that low.

    Oh, and can we stop Restorers from healing destructible rocks? So damn annoying when you are trying to kill them and your, or worse, your allies' Restorers are healing them.
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    dra6o0n

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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  dra6o0n on Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:46 pm

    So we need a list of Restorers' Do's and Don'ts:

    Do:
    - Prioritize healing units, with SCVs being the highest, and then other units, then structure, then restorers.

    Don't
    - Auto-healing unnecessary doodads and props.
    - Wasting energy when you order several restorer to heal 1 target, rather than having 1 out of the group to heal per right click.
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    Starke

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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  Starke on Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:42 pm

    Additional suggestion for Tesla Coil balance: if they are going to take a hit, would you also reduce their build time by a bit? The one downside, and a somewhat silly one at that, is that they simply take a LOT of time to build, especially when you are massing them.

    Brodyaga

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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  Brodyaga on Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:39 am

    Starke wrote:...if they are going to take a hit...

    I don't agry that Tesla Coils need to get bad: right now there is something that you can use against Spine Crowlers as soon as we have Crip Generators hidden now. (Yes, I know that we use Air Turrets to dicower them.)

    Yes, Tesla Coils are good, but not good enough to survive through the wave of Bone Lords.

    Right now this Tesla Coils is something that we can use to survive at least up to the point when we build Big Bertha and Ravens.

    Also, this is something every noob would discover as a surprise.

    If Tesla Coils were redused, the balance of a game would be shifted to the situation when catching Zergs with Mind Emuletor is a must in order to win.

    To make game more dinamic, you can get Drones to build new Huncheries instead of killed.

    And... yea, the ending #3 is too easy, and with this ending the game finishing ubruptively.
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    dra6o0n

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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  dra6o0n on Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:30 am

    Well if you mean other methods to beat the game, yes.

    Maybe turrets can accel in what they do, rather than having simple functions.

    Improve each turrets, adding a advantage and a disadvantage to them, to scale it enough.

    Maybe with a Factory or Science Vessle (depends on turret type) you can upgrade to change the turret to function differently, but the main targets is still the same.


    Gun Turret -> Machine Gun Turret
    + Rapid Fire Capability (0.2 Attack Speed)
    - Damage (3 [4 vs light])
    - Range (5)

    Handy vs Drones/Zerglings/Broodlings/Mutalisk
    15 (20 vs light) Damage a second. Armored units lowers the DPS greatly.


    Missile Turret -> Flak Cannons
    + Attacks (6)
    + AOE Damage (25% Damage to nearby Air enemies)
    + Range (8)
    - Damage (7 [10 vs light])
    - Attack Speed (2.5)

    Anti-Air Flak Cannons for groups of Air units.
    16.8 (24 vs Light) Damage Per second. Or 120 Damage to Light Air units over 5 seconds for two attacks. Armored units can lower the Damage potential.
    Essentially -6 (6 attacks x -1 armor) Damage for every armor the unit has.


    Telsa Coil -> Void Tower
    + Attack Speed (0.7)
    + Effect (Damage multiplies like void rays, 2x after 3 seconds, and 3x after 7 seconds)
    - Damage (8 [12 vs Armored])
    - Range (6)

    Great against Armored Bosses, but needs to be combined with the right structure to protect and enable it to attack long enough.
    Prioritizes Armored foes to Non-Armored Foes.
    11.4 (17.1 vs Armored) Damage per second.
    22.8 (34.2) dps at 2x
    and
    34.2 (51.3) dps at 3x.


    Siege Tank -> L-ARC (Long Arc Revolver Cannon)
    + Damage (45 [60 vs Armored])
    + Effect (2x Damage on direct shot)
    + Range (30)
    + Special Barrage Ability (fires 5 rounds over the course of 20 seconds at a target spot, randomly hitting the area in a radius of 3)(Has a cooldown of 30 seconds).
    - AOE (Smaller Area Damage)
    - Projectile travels to last target's position at a slightly slow speed making it possible to miss.
    - Attack Speed (4)
    - Has larger minimum firing range.

    Prioritizes on hitting Armored enemies/structures with slower movement speeds. The Damage is greatly increased at a cost of attack speed and projectile speed. Longer range is a result of higher power.

    Every time a projectile is shot, a (nuke laser) will appear at the target location.

    Has the same friendly fire aspect, all damage to allies will be 25%, and 2x damage never occurs for allies.

    Great versus stationary targets, and you can manually order a group of L-ARCs to barrage at a spot too (cost energy to use)!

    The cost to upgrade them should be hefty... Maybe include supply cost of 1~2 depending on how powerful they are.

    Average cost of each upgrade can be like 40~150 Minerals and/or 40~150 Gas


    Last edited by dra6o0n on Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:44 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Starke

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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  Starke on Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:31 am

    Ok, even if they are NOT taking a hit, they need a build time decrease lol. They take 20 seconds and a Siege Tank takes only 12. And three Teslas is more like one Tank. I just lost a solo Brutal because my defense was taking so long to put up lol. Neutral Solo Brutal is long odds, but I was getting there. Wink
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    Nagnazul
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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  Nagnazul on Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:24 am

    Starke wrote:Ok, even if they are NOT taking a hit, they need a build time decrease lol. They take 20 seconds and a Siege Tank takes only 12. And three Teslas is more like one Tank. I just lost a solo Brutal because my defense was taking so long to put up lol. Neutral Solo Brutal is long odds, but I was getting there. Wink

    Hmm, I think you found the difference between Teslas and Siege Tanks.

    Thanks for the feedback in this topic - I always like seeing how players view different buildings.

    Also, you might find the siege tank more interesting once it gets upgrades. Range 18 anyone?

    Brodyaga

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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  Brodyaga on Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:41 am

    [quote="Nagnazul"]
    Starke wrote:...Also, you might find the siege tank more interesting once it gets upgrades. Range 18 anyone?...

    It sounds great! This would be very benefitial for my strategy.

    Right now I am using the strategy of "burned land" from World War 2 Germans vs. USSR. I keep building Tesla Coils (and detecting Air Turrets) for protecting my harvesting area and meanwhile slow killing adjacent hutcheries.

    Yes, I spend a lot of time on building Tesla Coils, but it is payed off:
    1) I get extra income for killing Hutcheries
    2) Extra income for killed Zergs coming to the vast controlled areas
    3) Safety for my SCV, Mules and buildings.
    4) Undisrapted attention: I can afford to put my SCV to hurvesting Geyzers and concentrate on exploration the dark areas with flying buildings, so I can deside in wich direction would be better move for me: because of rich Mineral Fields there, a few Geysers together or an attractive technology building. (Then I start building Tesla Coils in that direction, invading the area and killing Hutcheries and Spain Crawlers)
    5) Because of undisrapted attention I can run with my Predator arround the area and pick up Bonus Supplies and Gas and Minerals Bonus... mmm... (droplets? (little shiny balls))

    After it became too dangerous out here, I go to the corner or to the hill and build a base to survive through the wave of Ultralisks and futher attackers. When I have to move to the easier protected area - depends on how many Hutcheries our team killed and how far they are from my place.

    With Siedge Tanks for reinfocement and support it will be even safer for me to control the even bigger area and I can use less Tesla Coils to wall off myself from the potentially most dangerous dirrections with a lot of Hutcheries there.

    With the Siedge Tanks with such a range (18) I can stay outside of well protected base for a few nights longer, and hurvest more.

    Also, I can easier and faster kill Hutcheries and their realeased after death Bunelings will not reach my Tank.

    Right now after killing Hutchery I alwais loose one of my defencive Turret to Bunelings. With Tesla Coils with their long range, Bunelings live just long enough to come up to the Tesla Coil and die in a sec. So, Tesla Coil survives killing the Hutchery, just needs a little bit of a repair (with a Mule so on.) Two Tesla Coils alwais work better then one.

    What about the Tanks vision? Will it be wider then now? Will we need to send support units (Drons) out of base and burrage over the fight to show Tanks where to shoot?
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    Starke

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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  Starke on Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:29 pm

    Nagnazul wrote:Hmm, I think you found the difference between Teslas and Siege Tanks.

    Darn it, Nagnazul, I was really hoping you wouldn't say that lol. Crying or Very sad Sad Please don't make the deciding factor time constraints! The only disadvantage goes to guys like me that play solo/2 player, because we only have one/two Survivors to build with. Crying or Very sad

    Like Brodyaga, I like the idea of uber-tanks, but what will we use to spot?
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    Nagnazul
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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  Nagnazul on Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:13 pm

    Starke wrote:
    Nagnazul wrote:Hmm, I think you found the difference between Teslas and Siege Tanks.

    Darn it, Nagnazul, I was really hoping you wouldn't say that lol. Crying or Very sad Sad Please don't make the deciding factor time constraints! The only disadvantage goes to guys like me that play solo/2 player, because we only have one/two Survivors to build with. Crying or Very sad

    Like Brodyaga, I like the idea of uber-tanks, but what will we use to spot?

    Perhaps you'll like this upgrade then:

    "Makes most buildings build instantly."

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    Starke

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    Re: Tesla Coil vs. Siege Tank Conflict

    Post  Starke on Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:44 pm

    0_0

    Yes, please! Thank you good sir! Shocked My god, this will be invaluable for solo/2-player Brutal. I await this addition! Very Happy

    Nagnazul DOES care! cheers

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